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"What would Chess be without silly mistakes?" (Kurt Richter)
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I'm soliciting advice for my next attempt at a web site devoted to games. Some of you have seen my web site at gamesinmichigan.com It is currently in limbo, and I'm downgrading it to a static site for a few more months, but I don't intend to give up on it. It was received with underwhelming enthusiasm, but I still think the idea has potential.
It all started with my belief that since I liked playing games like Chess, Chess variants, Go, and other abstract board games, there must be others out there who, like me, also enjoyed those games. My thought was that what was needed was a simple site that announced when and where games would be played. The heart of the site was a simple calendar of events where people could find out where people were that were willing to play. I thought that if I could let people post a notice that said, "Xiangqi. 8:00 Thursday. Starbucks on Woodward" that people would post such notices, and that at least some times, people would show up to play. If you actually posted, "Hneftafl tournament, 1:00 pm Saturday, Basement of Springfield Lutheran Church, $5.00 entry fee" I knew there wouldn't be hordes that would show up, but I thought we could attract a dozen people, which is enough to play games for a tournament. At the very least, I thought I could find four players for something. That's enough for a three round “quad” tournament.
Well, it didn't work. Now, the question is whether the idea was hopeless, or whether it was a matter of execution. I'm going to assume the latter.
In business terms, here is my mission statement. "To use the world wide web to create more opportunities to play a wide variety of games against live, in person, opponents." In other words, more people playing more games is my goal. Abstract strategy games is a particular emphasis, because I like them, but in my particular case I have no intention of limiting it to only those games. I don't know exactly how far the scope of my web site would go, but it would certainly get to at least Magic: the Gathering, probably as far as Darts, and possibly as far as 10K runs.
So, if anyone has any advice for me, please discuss it here, or email me at [email protected]
Meanwhile, my own thoughts, starting with some lessons learned.
There really aren't a lot of game players in the world. Not as many as I had thought. There are a few reasons my own estimates were inflated. First, A lot of people who like to play games look at them as something to do with their friends, but they have no interest in playing with strangers. Second, people who do like to play them really do get into a specific game, not the concept of games in general. Now that I play a lot more Chess, I “get” Chess in a way I didn't a year ago, and understand better why you just can't convince some (most) Chess players to play a game of Shogi. This also limits the number of people who will go to a site devoted to games in general. The Go players will go to the Go site. The Bridge players to the Bridge site. The Chess players to the Chess site.
When it comes to the web site, appearances do matter. I really didn't worry too much about the look of the web site, other than being easy to navigate. I figured the content was more important. Really, it was just an overblown calendar of events. Who cares what it looks like? Well, a lot of people, apparently. So, I will pay attention to the look when the site is reborn. I have no artistic ability, but somehow I'm going to have to come up with a gamesinmichigan logo.
And since this is a forum, that's all I'll start with. I could go on at length, and if it's a topic of interest, I intend to. However, for now, I would like to hear from others. I'm looking for advice on what to include in a web site devoted to getting people together to play games.
I think it's unrealistic to expect a community (especially a real world community) to spontaneously coalesce
facilitated by a web site. Start with an existing site with a community and a compatible mission and establish
a splinter group.
Some examples (drawing from my local pool of examples) there's a "westside gamers" group that has
regular meetings and events. I could use their nexus to try to establish your walk-in gaming concept.
Or, there's a local "community group" mailing list, where local politics, police activity and general
happenings are discussed. Nothing about games at the momemt, but I talked about meeting at a
local public place to play, I wouldn't be out of line.
There's a real "chicken and egg" issue here, isn't there? I think it's a bit of a problem for IAGO as well. We're all sure that there must be others like us out there, but getting to them seems difficult.
One of the things that has surprised me is the internal cohesion of some of the existing communities, so that they want to remain their own community. The Chess community wants absolutely nothing to do with the other communities, which was somewhat expected, but I expected a more enthusiastic response from the Go and game convention communities. It seems that most Backgammon players don't see themselves as game players, just as Backgammon players.
I did also go to great length trying to get people to an event that didn't fit neatly into any of the existing categories, and had very little success.
Still, I would like to think there is a critical mass of people who are necessary to form an abstract players' community, and I think the key is somehow to play off the existing communities, and I think the web will play a key role in all of this, but finding a way to tap into it is proving difficult. The problem with doing it any other way is that there is money involved. Very few places will let you use their facilities for free.
To amplify, the real question is less about a web site, and more about building a community. The web site will be part of that effort, but only a part. I was asking about that part because that will be the think I spend some time next month working on, and because I just took down my old one.
Meadmaker, I am looking to have a calendar of events up on the IAGO Clubhouse site. We could put stuff there. The idea of the IAGO Clubhouse site IS to start building a community for abstract strategy game players. I will email you with more of the details. I don't want to get the link announced unless some events are there.
The calendar is likely to be the home for multiple IAGO World Tour events in the future. There will need to come to an end the putting on of events at the last minute on the Tour schedule. For the sake of promotion, we need to lock things in advance. We will also be looking towards an Championship Series as part of the Tour.
I do recommend checking out the Game Clubs of Maryland for more information on how to do this. Consider working with them.
That Maryland group has some pretty impressive activity.
Here's a question, for Rich or anyone else with thoughts on the subject. What are your thoughts about providing listings and/or links to game events that have absolutely nothing to do with your site?
In my case, I put up a bulletin board to post game events, and no one posted. Suppose I had scoured the web, and put up game notices for events I found. For example, if I went to the Michigan Chess Association web site, and simply copied their events to my calendar? Then did the same for Magic: the Gathering tournaments. And Bridge tournaments. Etc?
There are a few reasons for doing this. First, what I want, as a gamer, is to find events. If someone else did this I, as someone who wanted to attend, would appreciate it. Second, some game organizations act a bit too proprietary for my taste. Of course, I'm thinking about Chess in particular. I'm a bit miffed at the MCA because they wouldn't list a tournament that I'm holding for schoolkids next weekend. They tend to act like somehow they "own" chess. I would list their events, plus any other chess events anyone told me about, making my site a more complete listing than theirs. Third, a lot of these groups would benefit from cross pollination. Finally, from a selfish perspective, someone might go to the site looking for backgammon tournaments, and might just decide to play Xiangqi if they saw that someone was holding such an event.
Of course, the down side is that some of these groups could be thoroughly ticked off at it. I know how difficult it is to put together a group, and I could see someone feeling like I was creeping into their territory, and in some sense they would be right. In the case I mentioned, they would be absolutely correct.
From an IAGO perspective, could you see your site "covering" abstract games held by groups who either did not know about IAGO, or wanted nothing to do with it?
As I see it now, IAGO is NOT going to cover things by individuals who refuse to acknowledge IAGO exists, or hostile to it being in existence (Mark Steere currently fits in this category, due to his interests, not those of IAGO). The idea with IAGO is to build a community. Even events on the IAGO calendar are going to be officially registered. What is key here is we produce a community of people working together for mutual benefit. If people don't want to come together for that, then what is the point of doing anything in service of them?
You are free to do that, and create a repository of game events, but to what end would it accomplish? You going to produce a news site that people follow?
The problem, which has repeatedly been seen, is when you try to cover games of ALL types, it ends up WAY too broad, and doesn't really draw people in. There is also BoardgameGeek, which is an exception to this. It is built around a catalog of all boardgames, and the community followed. VGChartz happens to do sales predictions. What would doing a catalog of all events gain you or anyone else?
What I recommend you do is contract the people running the event and have them want to post to your calendar, and preferably link back. Think what unique service you can provide people in the process. In regards to games like Chess, I do believe related associations do "own" specific games, which is why IAGO is interested in PARTNERING with them regarding their games, and coordinating with them.
<blockquote>In regards to games like Chess, I do believe related associations do "own" specific games</blockquote>
They seem to think so, too. The problem is that the USCF won't publish every Chess tournament. The result is that there are Chess tournaments that are hard to find. The service I could provide, if I chose to do so, would be to have the most complete calendar on the web for Chess tournaments. To do that, I would have to publish times of USCF tournaments, and that would of necessity be without their permission. USCF doesn't really serve the entire Chess community all that well. They serve the type of player who fits in with USCF quite well, which, generally speaking, are extremely good players who are serious about the game. More casual players aren't their cup of tea.
What's the benefit, though, to a non-Chess abstract player? What if there's someone out there who would gladly play in a Khet tournament, if only there were one? The benefit to him is eyeballs on the site. Those casual Chess players drawn to the site might be more likely to play some game that isn't Chess. On seeing the fact that someone is having, or trying to organize, a Khet tournament, he might play.
One way or another, large numbers of eyeballs are key. If the goal is to bring people together to play games, having the most complete calendar seems like an obvious way to do that. Unfortunately, I have concluded, that might ruffle some feathers. The people who run organizations like USCF or the other single game confederations have worked hard to create a community in their image. If it's working for them, they like it, plus they are the big fish in the small pond. They don't really want anyone upsetting their domain, and who can blame them? So, I don't know if I want to go that far in ruffling feathers. I might decide to, but I haven't started writing the code just yet.
If I don't, what's the alternative? I know that I have to attract game players to a site, and I mean people who are looking to play in face to face games. I know that first enough people have to be viewing the site, and ideally contributing to it, somehow. That way, when you announce you want to have a tournament, enough people show up so that the people who wanted to play actually get to play.
I can't think of very many ways to make that happen. News? I suppose. Possibly. I'm not sure I would read a game news site, but some people would. Seems like lots of work with small potential payout. Lessons on play in various abstracts? Annotated games and such? It might work, but it would be a lot of work to create. The goal there would be to have a mailing list that people could join if they want to be notified of an event. When the mailing list is large enough that you are sure enough people will show up, schedule the event and send the notice.
Any other ideas? While surfing, I see general conversation at sites like boardgamegeek, live play sites, turn based play sites, an occasional, but not well attended, blog.
I think you're using inappropriate technology. A worldwide web audience (even if you have one) is not going to descend
on Detroit for a casual afternoon of Xiangqi in a cafe, and conversely, a comprehensive worldwide calendar of local events
would be unusable and uninteresting to everyone. If you want people to walk in, you've got to target mainly those within
walking distance or you're wasting your time.
I disagree there. I'm part of clubs that meet in the Detroit area. We use web sites to keep in touch, and periodically someone joins the club after seeing our web site. The fact that people in Singapore might also stumble onto the web site doesn't detract from its ability for local outreach. When I first wanted to start playing in Chess tournaments, I googled Chess + Michigan, and immediately found a local site.
Of course, a national/worldwide site with local chapters is a great method. I can go to chess.com and search "events near me" and find out the ones that are listed. Once IAGO gets rolling, it would be nice to do the same thing. However, we're back to chickens and eggs.
I did stumble onto Clark's U-Con abstract event via this site, so already it did some good, but I still believe there is larger potential.
On the calendaring thing, I believe we would benefit from developing the concept of seasons, and having different events coordinate their efforts and pool together. Key is to have it so the events support one another and don't canabalize each other. Like running multiple events in different cities at the same time, doesn't help ANYONE. Only exception would be if the events were linked to some championship somewhere. The American Go Association happens to run is Oza in two cities at the same time, on on the East and the other on the West coast of the USA.
What I would like the Clubhouse to develop is a calendar to post things that would be searchable, along with what venues want players there, their hours and seating capacity.
For general gaming, I suggest using Boardgame Geek and getting in touch with Game Clubs of Maryland.
Where are these different events that can coordinate? Different events in different cities at the same time? I would like to see one event in one city at any time.
I think the clubhouse is an excellent idea, by the way. I'm just trying to figure out a way to get stuff onto it. I'm confident that simply declaring it open for business won't work. In my mind, I'm toying with the idea that the only way to make it work is to jump start it with content by listing events that are already happening. The only down side of that approach is that the people running those events generally don't want it to happen. The vast majority of event organizers wouldn't know of its existence. Of those that do, a few would welcome the publicity. Most would be pretty close to indifferent. Some would be actively hostile. Moreover, the more successful they are, the more inclined they would be toward hostility. The guy like me trying to get 3 other folks to play Shogi would think it was awesome. The USCF might be less enthusiastic.
Well, I feel it is important that the IAGO World Tour end up having its presense in one city at any one given time, or it could be multiple cities, PROVIDED the events are linked. This has to do more with stuff like, the Chicago Toy Fair deciding it wants to have events at it, and puts itself the same weekend as Clark's event in Michigan. That got even more complicated when another person wanted to run a game event in Carolina. The Tour can't be at all these events at the same time, unless it is the same event across multiple locations. Coordinating here would end up being that the events decide to either be at different times, OR if at the same time, meet at the same venue and make it a larger event.
What we need for the Clubhouse is a database to register venues and their availability. In addition to this, work to get Meetup level functionality, to allow people to reserve table space at venues. I also would like to have the related associations involved with this. The idea is to have community happen. If the related associations and communities don't get behind IAGO, then IAGO ends up being positioned as a competitor to them. If they insist on it, then we have to take that role.
As far as listing events that already happened, what is the point of it?
What's the point of listing events that have already happened? That's not it. It's events that are already happening. In other words, if I do what I'm thinking about, someone going to my site would see a list of game events happening in Michigan. If he did a "search by game" and entered "Chess", he would get a list of Chess tournaments, with names places and dates. Most of these would be things that I saw on a Michigan Chess Association page, copied the information and then provided a link to the MCA page. A few might be tournaments that the MCA, for one reason or another, did not list. As a consequence, I would have the most comprehensive list of Chess tournaments in Michigan.
If that same player did a search for "backgammon", he would see a list of events, probably sponsored by a Backgammon association. If he entered "Scrabble", there would be a list of US Scrabble association events. Meanwhile, I would not have asked USCF's permission, or USSA's permission, to put their events on my calendar. Then, that same player might scan the list of all games, and see that there was one for Khet, and he might say, "Wow. I didn't know there was a Khet tourney. That sounds like fun."
If I don't list Chess, Backgammon, Scrabble, and Bridge, without their cooperation and possibly against their desire, there wouldn't be many events on the site, and people wouldn't bother coming back, and they might never see the Khet tournament.
If I don't do that, I have to find some way of getting people to come back week after week to check the calendar for the once in a blue moon event that is happening, but isn't being put on by some other store or organization. I can't think of any other way. So, unless I come up with something else, I have to give up the idea entirely, and resign myself to Chess or nothing, or risk ruffling some feathers.
One of the issues I am seeing, if you cover all games, is that it doesn't have a theming hook to get people involved or interested. An enthusiast for chess, for example, could end up switching to the likes of Go or maybe Backgammon. Unless it is poker, which has money in it, usually you aren't going to see a player suddenly going to that, or caring about that. Like, you have a chess player, and then they find Scrabble, will they care?
I would try to recruit people in Michigan to work with you. Consider contacting people who use Myspace and offer to list their meetings there. Do what GCOM is doing, but in Michigan. This might have a chance of working. Of course, it may have the entire herding cats problem, but hopefully that is minimal.
Actually, want to do something useful? Try copying the functionality of Meetup to do announcements and scheduling, but make it serve game players more. And have people use this. Have people in Michigan start, but then go elsewhere. Also, contact me again here (Private Message) or via email, so we can look into getting venues that want people at them.
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